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When to play dxc5
01-20-2010, 01:25 PM
Post: #1
When to play dxc5
Is there any reason not to start the Phoenix attack line immediately after black plays either Bd6 or Be7? Your new book focuses just on the former Bd6 move.

thanks, I am new hear. Love your book, Joe
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01-20-2010, 01:53 PM
Post: #2
RE: When to play dxc5
Thanks Joe.
Unfortunately, if Black plays ...Be7 and then you play dxc5, he can ignore it and play ...Nfd7 and end up with a good position.

A lot of people play it a move earlier than I suggest [before Black castles]...and that is _probably_ okay.

Normally, on earlier moves, White has other things to concern him. He does not want to cede control of e5 too quickly.
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01-21-2010, 12:22 PM
Post: #3
RE: When to play dxc5
(01-20-2010 01:53 PM)Rudel Wrote:  Thanks Joe.
Unfortunately, if Black plays ...Be7 and then you play dxc5, he can ignore it and play ...Nfd7 and end up with a good position.

A lot of people play it a move earlier than I suggest [before Black castles]...and that is _probably_ okay.

Normally, on earlier moves, White has other things to concern him. He does not want to cede control of e5 too quickly.
It looks to me like you can take dxc5 after Be7 and just before black castles, then if black castles (he loses if he does not castle and plays Nfd7 at that point), you play a3. The, if Nfd7, you have a b4 holding the pawn....?
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01-21-2010, 07:53 PM
Post: #4
RE: When to play dxc5
Hi Joe,
Could you give me a move order you have in mind? Since White has not played Bb2 in the normal move order, I don't see why Black loses if he does not castle.

The move order I am thinking of is: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Be7 7.dxc5

The reason I"m up at 4:45, though, is that perhaps this whole line of thought adds to the value of delaying castling.
After: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.Bb2 Be7 7.dxc5, the g2-pawn is not covered, so 7...Nd7 leads to interesting stuff: 8.Bxg7 Rg8 9.Bc3 Rxg2.

But this looks pretty good for White, I'd say...and awfully fun!

The problem with this line is that Black's nettlesome responses are more likely, and now 6...Qa5+ cannot be met by 7.Bd2, and 6...Ne4 is also interesting. But I have some confidence that none of these are real deterrents. I think you may have helped me find a real improvement here because it would allow White to cut through some of the most difficult lines in the classical variation.

Just a final note...you almost certainly realize it, but none of this works if Black plays ...Nbd7 instead of ...Nc6. But those lines are generally less concerning for White.

Thanks for this contribution...it will be worth fleshing out for the 2010 edition of Zuke 'Em!
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01-22-2010, 01:40 PM
Post: #5
RE: When to play dxc5
(01-21-2010 07:53 PM)Rudel Wrote:  Hi Joe,
Could you give me a move order you have in mind? Since White has not played Bb2 in the normal move order, I don't see why Black loses if he does not castle.

The move order I am thinking of is: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Be7 7.dxc5

The reason I"m up at 4:45, though, is that perhaps this whole line of thought adds to the value of delaying castling.
After: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.Bb2 Be7 7.dxc5, the g2-pawn is not covered, so 7...Nd7 leads to interesting stuff: 8.Bxg7 Rg8 9.Bc3 Rxg2.

But this looks pretty good for White, I'd say...and awfully fun!

The problem with this line is that Black's nettlesome responses are more likely, and now 6...Qa5+ cannot be met by 7.Bd2, and 6...Ne4 is also interesting. But I have some confidence that none of these are real deterrents. I think you may have helped me find a real improvement here because it would allow White to cut through some of the most difficult lines in the classical variation.

Just a final note...you almost certainly realize it, but none of this works if Black plays ...Nbd7 instead of ...Nc6. But those lines are generally less concerning for White.

Thanks for this contribution...it will be worth fleshing out for the 2010 edition of Zuke 'Em!

Hi, yes I had in mind a little delay in castling, which makes 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.Bb2 Be7 7.dxc5 Nd7 pretty good for white, at end of your line 10 Kf1 seems close to winning for white, and King play like at Corus right now with top grandmasters!Smile

The early 6...Qa5+ is answered I think by 7Nbd2, cxd4 8 exd4, Nb4 and now white soon gets several tempi off of black's rather misplaced queen. And white Eventually gets a strong c4 move and gets the c file.

On 6.. Ne4,7 0-0 Be7 8 dxc5 0-0 9 Bxe4 dxe4 10 N d4 should be good and fun for white to play....

very interesting lines. Joe
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