Novice moves - Black blocks his c-pawn with an early Nc6

[vulturesrow]

First off, Rudel if you are reading, I just got your book in the mail today from amazon and I absolutely love it. Its great work. I balked initially when I saw the price but I think I am going to say its money well spent.

So here was the move order at the beginning:

1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 Nc6

I basically went ahead with the normal CZ development plan...but I feel like I shouldve made a stronger move to exploit the fact that his c pawn was blocked by his Knight... 3. c4 perhaps?

Hope this isnt too trivial a question...

[Rudel]

(03-03-2010 03:59 PM)vulturesrow Wrote:  First off, Rudel if you are reading, I just got your book in the mail today from amazon and I absolutely love it. Its great work. I balked initially when I saw the price but I think I am going to say its money well spent.

So here was the move order at the beginning:

1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 Nc6

I basically went ahead with the normal CZ development plan...but I feel like I shouldve made a stronger move to exploit the fact that his c pawn was blocked by his Knight... 3. c4 perhaps?

Hope this isnt too trivial a question...

Hi there, not too trivial a question at all!

First, let me say that I'm glad you liked the book. For what it's worth, Amazon USED to discount it by 10%, so i put the price at 27.99. The idea was that Amazon would then sell it for 25.19 or so, which they did for a long time. The point is that it then qualified for free shipping, so you not only saved the money for shipping but could get any other books you might want at the same time without paying shipping.

Unfortunately, after I put in the last revision, Amazon did not discount it. I was considering moving the price back down to 25.00...but then I was concerned Amazon would discount it, knocking it below that 25 dollar line.

Anyways, I'm glad you decided to get it; I hope you find it worth the money.

Regarding your second question, there is a good way to get an advantage after Black blocks in his c-pawn. Indeed, you might pick up (after reading a bit more) how it makes sense for White to try to do something a bit different because the C-Z is somewhat built to make Black's ...c5 move look unuseful.

In this particular case, I advocate waiting for Black to move out his Q-Bishop [he almost certainly will do this soon] and then playing Bb5 because Black has no good way of defending his Knight from capture.

You can read more about this in the book. It is section 4 of chapter 11: Chigorin play. I use the somewhat more challenging move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nc6, but the same basic idea holds (it should transpose in fact).

[vulturesrow]

Rudel,

Thanks. Obviously I havent had a chance to read closely and so missed that section. I will say in spite of the fact that I didnt perhaps get the optimal move order in I still managed to get a really strong attack going on the kingside. Unfortunately I caught the equivalent of what poker players call "fancy play syndrome" and ended up dropping some material by trying to be fancy and miscalculating instead of just taking a straightforward material advantage. I might post it in the game forum if I can get over the shame.

Thanks for the answers and I think its great to have this forum where we can discuss the book and the opening. Its very nice for a low rated player like myself to be able to ask seemingly trivial questions like I did.

[Rudel]

You're very welcome. Glad to have you here!

[Sicilian]

Hi Rudel I have Zuke em & Moment of Zuke really enjoying them,lotta reading to get thru.After d4d5Nf3NF6e3Nc6Bb5couldn’t the game just continue a6Ba4b5and white has to retreat his bishop?Regards from the Sicilian

[Rudel]

That's why I suggest a waiting move...White first waits for Black to commit his Bishop.

White should play 4.Nbd2 and plan to follow up with Bb5 after 4...Bg4 or 4...Bf5

See section 4 of chapter 11 [of "Zuke Em"] for details, especially regarding the continuation 4...a6.

[jhbchess]

So after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 do you recommend that white take BxNc6 (assuming Black hasn't done anything worth responding to)?

I have bought Zuke'm, TMOZ, and Bxh7+ (and admittedly am still working through chapter 4 of Zuke'm) but I was playing on the premise that I need to keep my prized bishop and have therefore avoided early forays to B5.

I play one particular guy probably 10 times a week who routinely plays:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 g6 or
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 Bxf3 6. Nxf3 7. g6

So this is of particular interest to me.

Thanks! I love the books and am putting the Colle to work on chess.com and have played probably 60-70 games with it as white trying to get the basic lines down.

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After my last post I played OTB and ended up with this:

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 g6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. 0-0 Bg4 6. Bb5 Qd6 7. Nbd2 Bxf3 8. Nxf3 Bg7 9. Bxc6+ Qxc6 10. c3 which seems like I'm two pieces shy of the classic Colle...

[Rudel]

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  So after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 do you recommend that white take BxNc6 (assuming Black hasn't done anything worth responding to)?

Well, it depends on how he reacts to your Bishop sally. You are threatening more than Bxc6+. Black is a long way away from castling, so the move you really want to make is Ne5, pinning the Knight and requiring Black to figure out some way of defending it, which is very awkward.

Of course, playing Ne5 immediately makes no sense in many cases. For example, after in the line you mention it would drop the Queen . But the Bishop on g4 is just a temporary irritant. For example, after 5...e6 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3, White is once again threatening to pin the Knight with Ne5.

Black can play ...a6, of course, but after Bxc6, he still has to defend the c-pawn. Pushing it to c5 opens up that light-squared diagonal while his King is still vulnerable [c4 & Qa5 come to mind], and defending with the Qd6 can make him lose time keeping her safe.

An alternative way of exploiting that pin is simply an immediate 6.c4, threatening Qa4.

Anyways, the point is that Black's whole system is based on making active use of his Queen's Bishop. That leaves the c6-square very low on attackers, especially given how far away the Black King is from castling.

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  I have bought Zuke'm, TMOZ, and Bxh7+ (and admittedly am still working through chapter 4 of Zuke'm) but I was playing on the premise that I need to keep my prized bishop and have therefore avoided early forays to B5.

Ah, but recall the discussion in the "philosophy" section of the book. The whole idea behind the Zukertort is to make Black's QB the sorriest piece of wood ever to grace a chess board. If he plays an opening that attempts to refute that from the very beginning, you have to take drastic measures!

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  I play one particular guy probably 10 times a week who routinely plays:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 g6 or
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 Bxf3 6. Nxf3 7. g6

So this is of particular interest to me.

The same principles apply here...and the bottom line essentially gives you a free move! After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 g6 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 g6 8.Ne5, Black has trouble getting any compensation for his pawn (e.g., 8...Qd6 9.c4 O-O 10.c5 Qe6 11.Qa4).

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  Thanks! I love the books and am putting the Colle to work on chess.com and have played probably 60-70 games with it as white trying to get the basic lines down.

---

After my last post I played OTB and ended up with this:

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 g6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. 0-0 Bg4 6. Bb5 Qd6 7. Nbd2 Bxf3 8. Nxf3 Bg7 9. Bxc6+ Qxc6 10. c3 which seems like I'm two pieces shy of the classic Colle...

See the "Sneaky Gruenfeld" chapter

[jhbchess]

Thanks! I also finally got into the end chapters, which really helped put things together. A lot to learn, but I'm certainly enjoying it. Thanks again for your time.

(08-07-2010 05:20 AM)Rudel Wrote:  

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  So after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 do you recommend that white take BxNc6 (assuming Black hasn't done anything worth responding to)?

Well, it depends on how he reacts to your Bishop sally. You are threatening more than Bxc6+. Black is a long way away from castling, so the move you really want to make is Ne5, pinning the Knight and requiring Black to figure out some way of defending it, which is very awkward.

Of course, playing Ne5 immediately makes no sense in many cases. For example, after in the line you mention it would drop the Queen . But the Bishop on g4 is just a temporary irritant. For example, after 5...e6 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3, White is once again threatening to pin the Knight with Ne5.

Black can play ...a6, of course, but after Bxc6, he still has to defend the c-pawn. Pushing it to c5 opens up that light-squared diagonal while his King is still vulnerable [c4 & Qa5 come to mind], and defending with the Qd6 can make him lose time keeping her safe.

An alternative way of exploiting that pin is simply an immediate 6.c4, threatening Qa4.

Anyways, the point is that Black's whole system is based on making active use of his Queen's Bishop. That leaves the c6-square very low on attackers, especially given how far away the Black King is from castling.

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  I have bought Zuke'm, TMOZ, and Bxh7+ (and admittedly am still working through chapter 4 of Zuke'm) but I was playing on the premise that I need to keep my prized bishop and have therefore avoided early forays to B5.

Ah, but recall the discussion in the "philosophy" section of the book. The whole idea behind the Zukertort is to make Black's QB the sorriest piece of wood ever to grace a chess board. If he plays an opening that attempts to refute that from the very beginning, you have to take drastic measures!

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  I play one particular guy probably 10 times a week who routinely plays:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 g6 or
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 Bxf3 6. Nxf3 7. g6

So this is of particular interest to me.

The same principles apply here...and the bottom line essentially gives you a free move! After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Nbd2 Bg4 5. Bb5 g6 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 g6 8.Ne5, Black has trouble getting any compensation for his pawn (e.g., 8...Qd6 9.c4 O-O 10.c5 Qe6 11.Qa4).

(08-05-2010 05:07 AM)jhbchess Wrote:  Thanks! I love the books and am putting the Colle to work on chess.com and have played probably 60-70 games with it as white trying to get the basic lines down.

---

After my last post I played OTB and ended up with this:

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 g6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. 0-0 Bg4 6. Bb5 Qd6 7. Nbd2 Bxf3 8. Nxf3 Bg7 9. Bxc6+ Qxc6 10. c3 which seems like I'm two pieces shy of the classic Colle...

See the "Sneaky Gruenfeld" chapter